Christ's atonement is universal!

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Do you believe Christ died for the whole world?

Poll runs till Wed Sep 19, 2046 9:39 am

Yes, I believe Christ died so that everyone will be saved whether they are Christians or not.
0
No votes
Yes, I believe Christ died for the whole world but to be saved one must repent and believe in Christ.
3
60%
I believe Christ died so that those elected by Him for salvation will be saved
1
20%
Unsure
0
No votes
I don't believe in Christ
1
20%
 
Total votes : 5

Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Bill Whatcott » Sun May 11, 2008 1:49 am

Dear Friends:

Scripture is clear salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone and many people will reject God's gift of sending His Son into the world that we might have eternal life through Him.

Still the church clearly teaches God does not will people to perish in hell. God loves His creation and His glorious gift of salvation is available to all who will ask.

"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,"
Genesis 22:18

"Sing to the LORD, all the earth;
Proclaim the good news of His salvation from day to day.

Declare His glory among the nations,
His wonders among all peoples
."
1 Chronicals 16:23, 24

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
Matthew 7:7,8

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
St John 3:16, 17

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.â€
:cross:Christ is the answer!
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Watchman » Sun May 11, 2008 7:13 am

God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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Amen!

Postby Fr. Philip Mullen » Sun May 11, 2008 8:57 am

Whitsunday/Pentecost (& Mothers Day),
05-11-2008

Dear Friends,

Amen! -- to Bro. Bill!

+ E.G. -- John 3:16 & 12:32; Romans 5:18; I Timothy 2: 3-6, 4:10; Titus 2:11, Hebrews 2:9 -- KJV.

Of Course -- Universal Atonement/Redemption does not exclude Particular Salvation, by Predestination to Eternal Life in Christ, through the Means of Grace -- e.g., Ephesians 1:3-14, KJV.

Contrary to Calvinistic opinion, our Election as Christians to Eternal Life does NOT mean that God Predestines -- or "Passes Over" (Preterition) -- those who will not be Saved, to eternal damnation. Those who are eternally damned, are lost because of their own depraved sinfulness ("free will") & Satan. God would have ALL men to be Saved.

In this regard, we Orthodox Lutheran Christians are quite fond of the following exemplary PARADOXES in God's Word -- BAFFLING ALL HUMAN REASON & LOGIC:

1.) God is Gracious to ALL His Creation --
yet He will Consign Satan & ALL Unrepentant Sinners to Eternal Fire.

2.) God is Good & Sovereign over ALL His Creation --
yet EVIL, Satan & SIN exist.

3.) God Condemns ALL SIN & SINNERS IN His Law --
& Saves ALL Repentant Sinners in His Gospel.

4.) God's Grace in Christ is Universal --
yet ONLY the Elect in Christ will be SAVED.

5.) God only CHOOSES & ENABLES Salvation for Man --
yet totally depraved Man can only CHOOSE DAMNATION FOR HIMSELF.

The Scripture cites are well known to those who play this 500+ year old "tennis match"!

This Biblical Doctrine is reiterated by such Church Fathers as St. Augustine (although his followers rejected his "double" Predestination & other mistakes at Orange II) , St. Prosper, St. Hilary, St. Pope Leo I, St. Caesarius, St. Pope Boniface II, and St. Martin Luther. The Second Council of Orange (AD 529 -- ratified by Pope St. Boniface II), also reiterates this Biblical Doctrine, as do the Orthodox Lutheran Confessions of the Book of Concord, etc. The Calvinists, Arminians & other Synergists, Eastern Orthodox & other Semi-Pelagians, and Pelagians drifted into extremes of one direction or another in this regard.

Roman Catholic teaching in these matters leans, in several scholastic traditions, either to St. Augustine -- or St. Thomas Aquinas (whom we Lutherans revere as a great Hymnist, rather than a Theologian).

After over a century of colloquies with the Calvinists (and their Arminian cousins) regarding these important areas of Christian Doctrine, 1530-1631 -- the Thirty Years War finally interrupted what was already a deadlocked Dialogue between the Lutherans & Calvinists. Calvinists and Lutherans generally AGREED on the Primary Fundamental Doctrine of the FIVE SOLAS, and even such Non-Fundamental Doctrine as the institution of the Papacy being the Antichrist -- but remained ENTRENCHED on such Secondary Fundamental Doctrines as the Communication of Christ's Attributes, the Sacraments (especially the Lord's Supper), and Predestination.

But despite these important Historical & Doctrinal differences -- all real Christians have much more in common than divides. This is why I emphasise the irenical over the polemical in Ecumenical Dialogue. If someone enjoys argument for the sake of argument, they will have to resort to someone other than THIS Orthodox Lutheran Christian Pastor!

Now I must prepare for Mass at Noon -- Happy Pentecost to ALL!

Soli Deo Gloria!

God Bless!

In Christ's Love,
:cowboy: :coffee:
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& British American Loyalist
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+Solus Christus + Soli Deo Gloria +
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Watchman » Sun May 11, 2008 9:40 am

Most mainstream Protestant faiths, with exception to Presbyterian adhere to the Arminian view of theology. While many reformed and the Presbyterian denominations adhere to the Calvinist view of theology. This is one of those centuries old debates that will NEVER be resolved through reason and logic, but only by God's divine intervention. And it is indeed not an issue of salvation and therefore as I see it, not worthy of a continued debate.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Bill Whatcott » Sun May 11, 2008 10:17 am

\"Watchman\" wrote:God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.


If one takes Romans 8 & 9 I can certainly understand how one would believe Christ died for the elect rather than the whole world.

But how do you reconcile Romans 8 & 9 with St. John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:3-5?

Happy Mother's Day and Sunday! On my way to mass now! ....... :mrgreen:
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Watchman » Sun May 11, 2008 12:27 pm

\"Bill Whatcott\" wrote:But how do you reconcile Romans 8 & 9 with St. John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:3-5?
John 3:16 actually supports limited atonement. It states that "whosoever believes" has everlasting life. It is ONLY for those that believe that have everlasting life, and not for those that don't believe. Therefore, Christ died ONLY for those that believe which implies a limited atonement.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Bill Whatcott » Sun May 11, 2008 3:17 pm

\"Watchman\" wrote:
\"Bill Whatcott\" wrote:But how do you reconcile Romans 8 & 9 with St. John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:3-5?
John 3:16 actually supports limited atonement. It states that "whosoever believes" has everlasting life. It is ONLY for those that believe that have everlasting life, and not for those that don't believe. Therefore, Christ died ONLY for those that believe which implies a limited atonement.


We agree those who do not believe have no share in God's salvation plan. None the less I can't see John 3:16 in plain English supporting your contention salvation is limited in scope.

"For God so loved the world" on the face of it is a statement implying universality. I don't believe the concept of limited atonement was advanced until St Augustine in the 3rd century after Christ founded His Holy and Apostolic Church. The Catholic church non the less moved away from the Augustinian concept of election and went more in the direction of St Thomas Aquines's concept of free will and universal atonement.

This seems reasonable to me in light of St Timothy's exhortation:

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

The fact all men are not saved does not speak to limited atonement, rather it speaks to free will and many (perhaps most men) will reject Christ and choose eternal damnation rather than co-operate with God's desire they be saved.
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Watchman » Sun May 11, 2008 3:52 pm

If Christ died for the world but most people reject Him, then His death on the cross is in vain is it not? His death on the cross is ONLY for those that believe and NOT for those that reject Him. Therefore His atonement is limited. God does NOT need fallible men to accept or reject a sovereign God. This goes hand-in-hand with predestination. For those that God has elected have been predestined before the very foundations of time. Likewise, God has chosen a select few and NOT the world. For remember, Jacob he loved but Esau he hated. (Romans 9:13)

His atonement is NOT universal but only for those that are called, for Jesus Himself states:

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9b)

Here is yet another passage indicating that Christ will only save a limited amount of people:

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)

In the following passage note that Jesus Himself states that it is ONLY for THE sheep that He lays his life down for and not sheep in general:

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,...and I lay down my life for the sheep" (John 10:14-15)

In reference to John 3:16 about "the world" it is indeed a fact that God loves the world, but this does not have anything to do with Christ's atonement being universal. Here it is broken down:

For God so loved the world - Yes, God loves the world that He created.

that he gave his one and only Son - God gave his own Son from Heaven to earth.

that whoever believes in Him - Note that his atonement is only for those that believe and not given to the world.

shall not perish but have eternal life - Those that believe will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven for all eternity.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Watchman » Sun May 11, 2008 5:10 pm

Bill - By the way, I love the discussion. Even though we disagree, this is what it's all about. God bless.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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I Love It Too!

Postby Fr. Philip Mullen » Sun May 11, 2008 6:13 pm

Whitsunday (& Mother's Day),
05-11-2008

Dear Bro. Greg & Bro. Bill,

Don't get me wrong, gentlemen -- I love it too! BUT NOT THE ODIUM THEOLOGICUM! I am also more physically exhausted these days. You are BOTH excellent fencers -- and I must apologise for not being as energetic as I once was! Believe me when I say, Brothers, that I love & respect both of you!

God Bless!

In Christ's Love,
:cowboy: :sword battle: :ilikeit:
+ Fr. Philip Mullen, :crusader:
Orthodox Lutheran Christian Pastor
& British American Loyalist
http://www.youtube.com/user/frphilipmullen
+ Sola Fide + Sola Gratia + Sola Scriptura +
+Solus Christus + Soli Deo Gloria +
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Bill Whatcott » Sun May 11, 2008 6:20 pm

\"Watchman\" wrote:Bill - By the way, I love the discussion. Even though we disagree, this is what it's all about. God bless.


Of course! There are a number of boards where the requirement is pretty much everyone agrees with everyone and I find that to be a little boring and stifling.

Obviously I generated this thread knowing not everyone views Christ's atonement as being universal and hence my position was likely to be challenged.:disg69:

At any rate in a few instances in my life I have found those whom I disagreed with were actually right.

You put forward good Scriptural arguments here, but now how do you reconcile your take on St John 3:16 with 1 Timothy 2:3 & 4?

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
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Re: I Love It Too!

Postby Watchman » Sun May 11, 2008 8:18 pm

\"Fr. Philip Mullen\" wrote:I love it too! BUT NOT THE ODIUM THEOLOGICUM!


Okay Philip. You are known for throwing around some unusual phrases and verbiage at times. In most part I'm usually pretty good at figuring them out. But this one got me. Never heard the phrase before. So I did a cursory search on Wikipedia and lo and behold, I found it! Eureka!

However, the definition doesn't quite fit the context in which you used it. Wikipedia defines the latin term as "theological hatred". Theology discussed in rancor. So where does this fit into our discussion thread? or perhaps you were just pulling our legs!

Peace,

Watchman
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Yeh » Mon May 12, 2008 10:50 am

Guss which vote is mine :mrgreen:
Show me the man you honor, and I will know what kind of a man you are, for it shows me what your ideal of manhood is, and what kind of man you long to be. -Thomas Carlyle
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Watchman » Mon May 12, 2008 2:49 pm

\"Yeh\" wrote:Guss which vote is mine :mrgreen:


If you ever come into a relationship with Jesus Christ, just know that He died for YOU.

Peace,

Watchman
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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Christ's atonement is universal!

Postby Bill Whatcott » Mon May 12, 2008 8:29 pm

\"Yeh\" wrote:Guss which vote is mine :mrgreen:


I dunno............. :scratch:
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